City of Keene
New Hampshire
Sustainability Design Committee Listening Session
MEETING MINUTES
Wednesday, January 14, 2009
7:00 PM
Keene Public Library, Trustee’s Room
Members Present:
James Duffy, Councilor, Chair
Dan Bartlett, Vice-Chair
Dave Curran
Mary Jensen
Connie Joyce
Joseph Kohler
Hanspeter Weber
Dan White
Mike Haman
Members Not Present:
Tom Duffield
Ruth Venezia, Councilor
Staff Present:
Andrew Smith
Others Present:
David Williams
Peter Hansel
Pablo Fleischmann
Sarah Walker
Wes Cobb
Chris Mark
Wally Secord
Susan R. Thielen
Karl Panza
Meeting Objectives
• Introduction and welcome: Chairman Duffy opened the Listening Session at
7:05 PM, and welcomed the guests and Committee members. He advised that this is an Ad-Hoc Committee, formed by the Sustainability Design Committee. Committee members introduced themselves and gave brief comments on what they each did. Chairman Duffy introduced Andrew Smith, of the Planning Department. Copies of the agenda and draft Ordinance were made available to all. He apologized for the cramped quarters and explained that subsequent meetings will be held in the auditorium.
• Committee Charge and Work History: Chairman Duffy presenting. The charge of
our Committee is to research and draft a sustainable energy design standard to be applied to the construction and renovation of building within the City of Keene. Mayor Pregent formed the Committee in February 2008. The Committee didn’t actually start working until June, and they have met regularly ever since.
So far the Committee has researched the infrastructure, inventory of who could supply green building materials, and who, in the area is familiar with Green concepts in the building trade (contractors, architects). It appears that Keene is well endowed with talent and materials. The Committee also looked at model Ordinances around the state and nationally. They also spoke with local builders/trades people and posed the question of
how did they feel about mandatory ordinances vs. voluntary or incentive based? They have also looked at the City’s Code Enforcement, Planning and other departments to ascertain the knowledge base of sustainable design. There is a strong knowledge base, but a shortage of manpower. Dan Bartlett, Tom Duffield, and Joe Kohler drafted the model ordinance.
This is the first of three meetings to be held. The Committee intends to try to incorporate everything they hear at these meetings, and come up with something that works best for the people of Keene. Meetings will be held on 1/24/09 at 1 PM, and again on 2/3/09 at 7 PM, both to be held at the Library.
• Definition of Green Buildings:
• Examples and Representation Andrew Smith presenting. The group is
currently looking at energy, water, material efficiency, and that buildings be habitable for humans. He showed slides depicting examples of both residential and commercial buildings. One example was the green roofs in Chicago; another was a New England style home with passive solar panels and south facing awning. He cited that fixes are not always expensive.
National trends – what people are looking at around the country included low impact materials, energy efficiency, quality and durability of materials, designing for reuse and recycling, and healthy buildings, all to promote sustainability.
Committee goals include conserving water, energy and other resources, making Green buildings attractive to homeowners in Keene, and reducing construction waste.
Variables to consider are economic, social, and environmental. One component of the social variable is what type of Green building would be appropriate for Keene. Data shows that buildings in the US are a huge part of energy consumption (39%).
Resources available include the US Green Building Council (USGBC), NH Association of Homebuilders, the EPA, and the Green Building Initiative. Mr. Bartlett brought up the blog that contains all the research that has been done and meeting minutes. It can be found under keenegreen.wordpress.com. The site also contains a “how to” page, with additional information to be added in the future, and the proposed draft Ordinance.
Ms. Jensen provided information regarding the Pond Site 3 at KSC. This is a residence hall that holds about 160 students. It was built as a LEEDS certified building. KSC’s premise was that it didn’t cost any more to build as a Green building than a conventional style residence hall. Two buildings were actually built at the same time. One did not meet the footprint requirements for a LEED certified building. The buildings are operating very well. After review it was determined that Pond Site 3 would only require one heating system instead of two. This of course produced immediate cost savings. After some research with Mr. Weber it was determined that any type of green building material is available locally. This changed the focus of what they were looking at instead to: 1. What would be recommended if you were to have an architect come in, 2. What would you ask to ensure they have the qualifications you’re looking for, and 3.what type of building company would you like to have come in and what questions would you ask them. They found that Keene has all the materials so what they can offer is more of how would you go about finding the right people for your project. KSC is now not building many LEEDS certified buildings, but has instead created a list of guidelines to be used. Waste management and air quality are also covered and are questions asked of prospective bidders.
• What could it mean for Keene?
• Housing Characteristics: Mr. Smith reported that the Committee wants to come
up with an Ordinance that is flexible in terms of new/old construction. They would like to keep new construction in line with the national scale and accommodate existing homes (retrofits).
• What is the Committee’s Goal? Chairman Duffy reported that the Committee
would like to introduce and have passed a reasonable Building Ordinance that represents the desires and needs of the citizens of Keene. There are a lot of renovations to older homes here in Keene. Keene has been working to reduce greenhouse gases for well over a decade. Keene was the first city in the state to join the Cities for Climate Protection Campaign. All of the electricity at the recycling center is produced through captured methane gas. This produces approximately $55,000 in electricity savings each year. The system will probably operate for another decade. Over the past decade the bio-diesel fleet has been phased in. Hybrid vehicles are being procured, and electric cars are being researched. Keene developed a Climate Adaptation Plan about a year and a half ago.
Mr. Smith stated “the main purpose of being here tonight is to listen to what you have to say.”
• Distribution of the Draft
• Draft has not been presented to Council
• Draft is not final
Mr. Bartlett addressed the group. Mr. Duffield, Mr. Kohler, and Mr. Bartlett became a sub-committee to look at third-party rating systems and other things that are out there. They also looked at what other communities are using and what worked or didn’t work. A lot of material is out there on how to build a house correctly. The National Green Building Standard is the only consensus based document for third-party rating systems. It is also ANSI approved. Its downside is that it’s for residential use only. LEED is also being used for municipally funded/state projects. This Draft is a very cursory beginning of a template showing how we might have a few bullet point items, a couple of mandatory items and then a menu of voluntary things. The point was to try to steer it towards energy efficiency, not at the price of air-quality. If this approach works it will take an enormous amount of work to get the wording right. The sub-committee felt that the notion of a mandatory audit report was a great idea for educational purposes, if nothing else, and he would like the group to look at that with a grain of salt.
Mr. Kohler explained that they were wrestling with two different things, one was how to deal with existing buildings, which represent the majority of what we’re dealing with. It was felt that the incentive approach could be used for new, big projects. They felt that the audit would educate the owners (owners are not required to act on audit findings), also that the audit was a good mechanism to show people what they could do, and explain to them why they might want to do it. If people are already educated they can choose from a big list of other things that they might already want to do, without doing the audit.
The audit is not required; it’s just one way to get your permit. The other way is to do some of the things on the list, and there you have an incentive because the permit fees are reduced.
Mr. Bartlett briefly discussed incentives. The Committee does not yet know all the incentives the City could offer. They have researched what other communities have offered such as reduced property tax, delaying the increased taxes your project would cause for a period of time. There are already other State and Federal incentives in existence. Any of the third-party rating systems would qualify the applicant for the incentives/fee reductions.
• Public Comments Chairman Duffy opened the floor to public comments.
1. Carl Panza of Sterns Road. Mr. Panza affirmed that he agreed with everything that’s going on. He personally started this himself back in 1984. He did a graph of his oil consumption and has gone from 3200 gal/year down to 1800 gal/year. He is very environmentally conscious, and very skeptical of anything mandatory. It is his personal opinion that this should all be voluntary. He discussed the previous comment made regarding people demanding green alternatives. He feels that a really strong incentive plan based on property tax, because of how hard Keene has been hit over the past several years that would suffice rather than the actual audit. He called the Dept. of Revenue and received data on all the cities and towns in NH that offer incentives. The categories listed were: wood heating energy systems, property tax exemptions, solar energy exemptions, wind power energy exemptions, also water and air pollution. These are the things he would like to see pushed. There was some dispute over what Keene actually offers, as there were no listings on the report. He also called the Dept. of Environment for NH to inquire as to the cost savings differences between a conventional home and a green home. He claims there is no detailed cost analysis. In closing, he agreed with what the Committee is doing, just not making it mandatory.
2. David Williams, owner of Williams Construction Group. He is also President of Southwestern Homebuilders. He agreed with some of the comments made by Mr. Panza, and disagreed with the Committees practice of comparing Keene with other areas of the country that aren’t even on the same wavelength. Larger populations, and more resources than Keene has. He asked how many of the Committee members were actually Leeds/Green certified. None were. He feels a tax-based incentive would help the homeowners that want to become Green. He feels that implementation of the proposal would hurt the local building industry right now. He stated that most other towns already require an audit before construction. He does agree with the audit, but finds it troublesome to make it a mandatory thing.
Chairman Duffy wanted to clarify that this is an ad-hoc committee whose term will expire next month.
3. Susan R. Thielen, of Kelleher Street. She really likes seeing what the Committee is doing. Over the past 35 years she and her husband have replaced everything in their home with energy efficient materials/systems. She expressed dissatisfaction with the Assessing process. They receive no credit for using energy efficient materials/systems. She feels a tax incentive would make this attractive to everyone. Of course, there are still people who will do it with/without the incentives. She feels energy audits are actually helpful to someone like herself, who has done what they can to become energy efficient. She also feels that repeat audits would benefit homeowners as technology changes. Mrs. Thielen cited many examples of materials/systems they have installed in her home.
4. Pablo Fleischmann, Keene business owner. He doesn’t feel the intent of the Committee was to make things mandatory. He feels more that the Committee is encouraging a reduction in building permit fees. He asked if anyone knew the fee schedule for permits. The current fee is $7 per $1,000. He feels this is a great incentive- firstly reducing permit fees, and secondly going back to the tax-exemption. Keene does have solar, wind, and whole house wood heat tax-exemption with a cap of $10,000. He asked if the Committee had looked at towns, like Epping, for commercial applicants.
Mr. Kohler queried whether or not the word “ordinance” was the problem. The point is that there is nothing that is required, other than the audit, of anyone. This is entirely incentive based. No one is forced to do anything. Possibly the City could subsidize the audit (there would be no cost to anyone); the audit could just become an educational tool. He reiterated that none of this is required. Mr. Barrett relayed that construction waste management is mandatory.
5. Peter Hansel addressed the group. He feels the concept of the Ordinance is more Enforcement/Inspection Code oriented than Ordinance oriented. He also feels the public needs to be made aware of the tax incentives. He also spoke on the Site Plan Review and wondered if the Committee would meet with the Planning Board to discuss having green concepts incorporated into building specifications, expediting the Site Plan Review process. He wondered if the Committee had thought about any cooperative efforts that would qualify for help in some way. He brought up the town that had proposed putting in a citywide system for heat and hot water. He also asked if he bought green energy credits from someone else does that help him qualify for the incentives.
6. Sarah Walker, from outside of Keene. Ms. Walker asked why there was one blanket Ordinance, instead of breaking it down into commercial and residential. Mr. Barrett addressed the question. To simplify the process the Committee broke it down into projects requiring Site Plan Review (SPR) and those that didn’t require one. That pretty much breaks it down into which projects are commercial/residential. The Committee may revisit that to make it a little clearer.
7. Wes Cobb expressed his confusion on the tax credits. If the City of Keene needs to raise $10 million in taxes, and everyone gets a $5,000 credit on their taxes for a green building, whose going to make up the difference that entails. The other taxpayers are not building green; their taxes are increased by that result. That doesn’t seem like a fair situation. He sees no reason for an incentive at all. If the green building is going to save money for a person/business over 5-10-20 years, and they’re going to invest the money if they’re going to save the money. Why should the rest of us have to pay for that?
8. Chris Mark runs a real estate business and just completed a large renovation in Keene. He wasn’t aware of this Committees work. He feels for the consumer disseminating the information is one of the hardest things. In regards to things like the word “ordinance” the City should never be too careful. Words like ordinance and mandatory will meet with resistance. Driving home the point of how much the homeowner may save instead of what the permit reduction will be on a large dollar project might be more acceptable.
Chairman Duffy asked if anyone else had questions/comments.
Peter Hansel commented on the expedited treatment for Site Plan Reviews.
Pablo Fleischmann stated he felt the point of the Committee was to educate people. He suggested an educational packet could go out with every Building Permit.
9. Wally Secord asked who was going to police this? He didn’t feel the City of Keene was going to be giving any tax credits. He is against any mandatory requirements and feels the public may be uneducated in this matter.
10. Jackie Rounds, of Winchester. She came to meeting to get educated. She is undertaking a large project in Winchester and had no idea where to go for the information she needed. She feels strongly that education is a big piece.
Mr. Barrett shared information from DCD LEEDS Square Foot Cost Guide. A LEEDS (homes) certified pad concept home cost $60.52 sq./ft. and a library addition would cost $109 sq./ft. Also the IECC 2006 (effective in NH) will have another code cycle in 2009 and 2012. Just passed for the 2012 version is the 30% Solution. This means that even if we do nothing, in 3 years we will be well on our way to being more energy efficient.
Chairman Duffy summed up the discussion to this point. It appears that people really want to see reliable information put out by this Committee. The group has talked about this and that is why the blog was developed. They have inventoried local landscape as far as products and know-how. He was happy to hear people’s opinions about tax incentives as well. The Committee did look at ordinances, but they were mostly things that didn’t make you do something. House Bill 1628 is basically an energy incentive bill. It was passed last year and the funds should be available in July. It primarily deals with solar energy. It is residential only.
Chairman Duffy asked if the folks would be interested in seeing the City of Keene pass strict standards on any municipal projects, RFP’s they take out, or any renovations? The City currently spends about over $1 million a year for electricity. Would you like to see the City build buildings that are more energy efficient given that it’s tax dollars that go towards that? A reply was that as long as it doesn’t cost more to build it, then absolutely.
Chairman Duffy thanked everyone for participating in the session. He felt that this meeting was a good start. He advised those wishing to make additional comments to call Andrew Smith at 352-5474.
Next session will be held Saturday, January 24, 2009, at 1 PM, in the Library auditorium and everyone is welcome to attend.
Respectfully submitted by,
Mary Lou Sheats-Hall
Minute Taker
